Talk:Hogan's Heroes

Motivations of Colonel Klink and Sergeant Schultz

I added a couple of elaborations in the brief explanations of Colonel Klink's and Sergeant Schultz's behaviors. For example, I noted that Schultz's indifference toward the POWs' subversive activities is partly a product of his distaste for Nazism. That is a very significant aspect of how the POWs' activities are not shut down. BilCat undid my changes, claiming that what I wrote is "unsourced. OR - there's. too much of it already." What I wrote is not repetitive, so there is not "too much of it already." I am willing to add footnotes, as long as BilCat will not keep undoing my modest changes. [User:50.96.25.170] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.96.25.170 (talk) 23:46, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

You are adding opinion and commentary, which is considered original research on Wikipedia, of which there is too much in the article already. Additions need to be based on reliable, published sources, not based on you viewing of the program. If you don't cite your additions properly, they will be removed. By the way, one of Klink's classmates was a major, so it's incorrect to state they were all promoted to General. In addition, taking Schultz's comment on not taking sides as expressing his distaste for Nazism is a stretch, and certainly qualifies as "original research". BilCat (talk) 00:04, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Reply from 50.96.25.170: Perhaps the "original research" already contained in the entry is "grandfathered in." The statements that I am trying to replace are inaccurate. The statement that says that Klink "is painfully unaware of Hogan's operation and believes the camp has a perfect escape record under his command" is not sourced and, in any event, could never be proved because it is supposedly based on what Klink "believes." But Klink knows very well that acts of sabotage are happening all the time in and near Stalag 13, and Major Hochstetter accuses Colonel Hogan of sabotage in numerous episodes. And that's not to mention the many Nazi visitors to the camp who, as they drive away in their staff cars, are mysteriously blown to bits (and Hogan occasionally suggests that Klink and Schultz hit the deck moments before the explosion occurs). Also in numerous episodes, Klink points out that he is the last member of his class, among those who are still in the Luftwaffe, to have not been promoted to general. It is not a stretch to "tak[e] Schultz's comment on not taking sides as expressing his distaste for Nazism": For him to say that he doesn't want to take sides is a treasonous statement; furthermore, Corporal LeBeau identifies Schultz as a "democratic socialist." I can offer citations for all of these observations, and will do so if I have reason to believe that you will forgo your opportunity to keep wiping out my edits unilaterally. I am unclear about your status that makes your opinion about the content of the entry the final authority. [User:50.96.25.170] 50.96.25.170 (talk) 00:42, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Nothing makes makes my opinion the final authority, nor is yours. But you are required to site sources beyond the episodes themselves, not add your own commentary and opinion. I may restore an earlier version of the article, as a lot of information has been added recently that ought removed as original research. Further, many different of the episodes were contradictory, as you know if you've seen all the episodes. It was a comedy series, not history, and they weren't all that worried about accuracy, even internally. So we have to be careful about making all encompassing statements based on our own interpretation. BilCat (talk) 04:04, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Sourcing TV shows is always difficult because so many are not covered adequately in secondary sources (which are what Wikipedia is supposed to use). Just tracing a comment to an episode isn't enough; you'd need to find an article that goes into these things. And so far none of the removed additions have had any sourcing of this nature. BilCat is quite correct in their removal of much of this content. Intothatdarkness 13:40, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Before Winter Comes

User:BilCat says: "there's absolutely nothing in the film's article about this influence" Thus User:BilCat is not familiar with or viewed both productions. I support including Before Winter Comes in See also .... 0mtwb9gd5wx (talk) 21:08, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

0mtwb9gd5wx (talk) 21:08, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

You claimed there was an influence. Please cite a source for that. If there is a significant influence, it should already be mentioned in the film's article, which, again, has no mention of Hogan's Heroes, beyond the See also link you added there today. Whether or not I've seen either production is irrelevant, as Wikipedia cites reliable published sources, not personal analysis. BilCat (talk) 21:19, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Very serious contradiction!

I'm in the midst of writing an article about this series and although I never consider Wikipedia to be a "reliable source," it's a great place to begin searching for RS's. While looking up Jewish actors playing Nazis on this show, I found the following information in the article, some of which is glaringly contradictory, but also, the most blatant claim of all is entirely uncited. This is pretty serious and should be fixed:

"In fact, Klemperer, Banner, and Askin had all fled the Nazis during World War II (Caine, whose birth name was Cohen, was an American)." (NO CITATION)

"Banner was born to Jewish parents and was in fact a sergeant during World War II, but in the U.S. Army."

While the apparent contradiction is only with regard to Banner, it seriously calls into question the claim that all three mentioned above fled the Nazis at all. This cannot remain in the article without proper citation. While is it possible Banner may have fled Germany before the war and later served in for the U.S., the former is certainly too bold a claim to NOT be properly cited and sourced with RS. Can someone either fix this soon (I'm too busy working on my article) or I will delete it myself post haste if it's still uncited within a few days.

In the meantime, I'm doing more research for my article and may return here with anything useful I find but I simply don't have time to edit the article itself. I'm not that great with Wiki code. 2601:19E:8280:3050:D88D:1FF8:7222:B5F3 (talk) 00:33, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't see a contradiction. If you read the bios of all of those actors, they fled the Nazi's to avoid persecution and later fought against the same regime that they fled. I would start with the bios of those actors and read interviews of them as a confirmation of those resources. Dbroer (talk) 03:30, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

There still remains the issue that the first statement is not cited at all. That's a pretty bold claim to make for no less than three pretty famous people with no source. I'd like to see the source but have no idea where it is or even if there is one.2601:19E:8280:3050:927:EB25:3DB5:3B49 (talk) 17:54, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

I also perused the Wiki bios of all three (Werner, John and Leo) and the only one that used the term "fled" is Leo's. The other two simply state they emigrated to the U.S. Nothing about fleeing the Nazis. That statement in this article needs to be better sourced or removed. Not everyone leaving Germany or surrounding countries were necessarily "fleeing" the Nazis. Although being Jews may seem to make it obvious it still needs sourcing.2601:19E:8280:3050:927:EB25:3DB5:3B49 (talk) 18:03, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

The definition of the word "fled" simply means to get away from. All three did that. If you can look at the definition of the word and explain where it doesn't describe what those actors did, please expand on your thinking.

Stating that they simply "immigrated" (note that emigration is different from immigrating) implies that there was no impetus for them to emigrate from their homelands other than getting away from a toxic environment. Considering they were Jews, they had every reason to flee where they were.

I don't have time to find sources for you but here's a 1972 interview with John Banner and they use the word "flee":

https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-fresno-bee-john-banner-interview/1005397/

Here's an obit on Werner Klemperer that also confirms that his father fled from the Nazi's:

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2000-dec-08-me-62884-story.html

There seems to be plenty of consensus that each of these actors "fled" from the Nazi's. I'll let you find and add the citations but there is no evidence that the notion is unsupported and that statement should be deleted.Dbroer (talk) 17:02, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree. Suggestions otherwise seem disingenuous. Intothatdarkness 21:26, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Demonstrably inaccurate

“Hovis appeared in the pilot episode as a different character, but became a regular cast member when the show was picked up.”

This statement is false. Hovis played Lt. Andrew Carter in the pilot and was credited as a guest star. He played T.Sgt. Andrew Carter in the series and was credited as a regular. He wore an identical costume in both the pilot and series. No explanation was given in-show for the difference in rank, but it was the same character. 2603:9001:4500:1C09:4D66:E67:318D:2F60 (talk) 03:05, 14 September 2024 (UTC)