Talk:Bodhidharma

What does "semi-legendary" mean?

That term is used in the lead sentence, but it's unclear to me what it means or how it's sourced. It sounds like prose and seem inappropriate for Wikipedia. Could someone clarify / tell me if I'm missing something? Actualcpscm (talk) 22:25, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

same thing, came here to start discussion on it.

word semi legendary is like 'semi-existence' , which is an oxymoron, which is used to dilute his historical background. Afv12e (talk) 19:50, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Concerning it sounds like prose I don't think that's the right word, as all of the text in the prose is prose. As far as "semi-legendary" I'm not sure if that's the right word to use or not but it's not an oxymoron, as it's being used to describe a person where there is agreement among scholars that the person existed, but a lot or most of what is known of them is attested in legends (hence semi-legendary, what we know is a mix of what scholars consider both legend and historically accurate). This is similar to how Ragnar Lodbrok is semi-legendary, contrasted to Sveigðir who is considered fully legendary, and Sweyn Forkbeard whose historicity is not in any serious dispute. - Aoidh (talk) 03:19, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

My bad, I meant creative prose, as in non-encyclopedic, creative writing. Actualcpscm ^{scrutinize, talk} 14:57, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

I also was confused by the term "semi-legendary", but this is a matter of English usage. There are ways of conveying uncertainty without using this term. Accordingly, I modified the lede slightly to eliminate the term. Respectfully Tachyon (talk) 13:09, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

My change was quickly reverted ostensibly because my revision was considered to be ambiguous as well. Still the term "semi-legendary" is unnecessary. Tachyon (talk) 13:21, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Slightly? You changed diff

Bodhidharma was a semi-legendary Buddhist monk who lived during the 5th or 6th century CE. He is traditionally credited as the transmitter of Chan Buddhism to China, and is regarded as its first Chinese patriarch.

into

Bodhidharma was a Buddhist monk who lived during the 5th or 6th century CE who is believed to be the transmitter of Chan Buddhism to China. He is also regarded as its first Chinese patriarch.

• I don't see the problem with "semi-legendary." He may or may not have existed; we can't know for sure, and it doesn't really matter; it's the legendary stories which are relevant for Zen;
• "Believed" is a weaselword; who "believes" so? Is this transmission a historiv fact? What's relevant is that he is credited with this transmission;
• "also"; no, not "also"; attributed transmission and legendary first patriarch are a cloth of one piece.

We're not talking about history here, we're talking here about legends and narratives. But the legends and narratives as subjects in themselves are historical artifacts, and most relevant to the self-understanding of the Zen-tradition. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 13:30, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Wow Joshua. I'not talking of history, or legends and narratives, I'm talking of English usage for a term I found and others found others found to be less than clear. I did not revert your revision. Respectfully, Tachyon (talk) 15:56, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Apologies, somewhat grumpy; in two days three disruptive editors I interacted with blocked. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 16:15, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 September 2023

Request for editing to include latest updates. KKWIKIID (talk) 06:31, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: this is not the right page to request additional user rights. You may reopen this request with the specific changes to be made and someone may add them for you, or if you have an account, you can wait until you are autoconfirmed and edit the page yourself. Cannolis (talk) 06:42, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Chinese characters for Bodhidharma

菩提達磨 Putidamo : traditional characters with Pinyin used for pronunciation. He is called Damo because a personal name is usually, but not always, the last two characters of a name with the first one or two being their xing so in a sense it can be seen as the name Puti Damo. This is a transliteration of the term into Chinese. Chinese names can be complicated. 2600:1700:DE60:3320:A196:ADD7:56EE:7127 (talk) 17:28, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

How the word Barbarian is added

I having seen that the word barbarian whose chinese letter can also be translated in english as Foreign,Foreigner,etc. But it is added as something that cause misconceptions and that should be corrected.THANK YOU. 2409:40C4:3010:97AA:8000:0:0:0 (talk) 14:39, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

@Foristslow and Likes Thai Food: thoughts? Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 14:55, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

I believe the original sense should be retained. The question is, what was the original sense? In the Platform Sutra, Hongren uses a slur for barbarian when addressing Huineng. In the Platform Sutra at least, it is likely that its author intended for the word to be derogatory. It's not that I am promoting the use of slurs. But I do think we have a responsibility to accurately show the way in which the tradition historically used these terms. Likes Thai Food (talk) 15:25, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

The character eludes to someone that has no restraint, so historically the underpinning principal translation will change depending on social religious and political position. So at this point it is really about what is the purpose of this article a) historical being early reference to phenomenon outside of Chinese influence and opinions held in history or b) education. As this is considered Dharma I adhere to tradition with a note explaining context for education. Hope this helps.🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼 Foristslow (talk) 00:21, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Lead image

@JGallagher83: why do you want to change the lead-image? Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:48, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Chan Buddhism.

please explain why when you know the history that you would negate all other pre-existing forms of Buddhist's culture and jump straight to a later evolution, there is no reference for the Shaolin edit. The first recognised Abbott of the temple was Batuo Buddhabhadra a Chinese monk that had indian heritage(but was Chinese- so binary in ideas to say he is indian) and as legend has it he was trained in the indigenous arts of qigong and taoist baguazhang, zingyiquan for the emperor's cort. As the Chinese Emperor was the benefactor of the temple, that would make sense right, Verse funding a foreign munk ???. [User:Foristslow|Foristslow]] (talk) 00:48, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Taoism influenced Chan Buddhism in many ways, including the incorporation of the concept of non-duality and the adoption of the idea of an "empty-mind":

Non-duality

The concept of "emptiness depending on matter" and "matter depending on emptiness" is a Taoist concept that was incorporated into Chan Buddhism in its early days.

Empty-mind

The "empty-mind" goal of Zazen is a Chan concept that is rooted in the Taoist sage's identification with nature and going with the flow.

Syncretism

There was extensive syncretism between Chinese Esoteric Buddhism and Taoism, including the adoption of the Taoist Lo Shu Square and the I Ching in the Mandala of the Two Realms.

Two schools of thought Some scholars believe that Chan Buddhism developed from the interaction between Taoism and Mahāyāna Buddhism. Others believe that Chan has roots in yogic practices. In any case Taoism and Buddhism were both postering for kings favour over Confucianisms and the remnants of legalism. Foristslow (talk) 03:00, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Shaolin is attributed, and sourced in the body. Regarding Bodhidharma being regarded as bringing Chan to China, of course that's historically questiinable, but that's not what we're talking about here; we're talking about he's viewed. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 13:20, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Here is one western reference Only part but to the point and there are lots more

One of the most recently invented and familiar of the Shaolin historical narratives is a story that claims that the Indian monk Bodhidharma, the supposed founder of Chinese Chan (Zen) Buddhism, introduced boxing into the monastery as a form of exercise around a.d. 525. This story first appeared in a popular novel, The Travels of Lao T'san, published as a series in a literary magazine in 1907. This story was quickly picked up by others and spread rapidly through publication in a popular contemporary boxing manual, Secrets of Shaolin Boxing Methods, and the first Chinese physical culture history published in 1919. As a result, it has enjoyed vast oral circulation and is one of the most "sacred" of the narratives shared within Chinese and Chinese-derived martial arts. That this story is clearly a twentieth-century invention is confirmed by writings going back at least 250 years earlier

12]Henning, Stan; Green, Tom (2001). "Folklore in the Martial Arts". In Green, Thomas A. (ed.). Martial Arts of the World: An Encyclopedia. Santa Barbara, Calif: ABC-CLIO.

Or Dr William cc Huo translated the Yijin Jing in Chinese talking about qi(Chinese) not prana (indian) no mention of India involvment. Talking about Taoist longevity and and and... exactly what I have read. What we are talking about to the best of our knowledge facts. And the only way this is done here is by reliable and credible sources being tricky about viewed or blind is miss leading. He is not by credible sources a real historical figure and you are arguing about nothing more than a comic book hero. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Foristslow (talk • contribs) 7 november 2024 (UTC)